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	<title>Comments on: When you put it that way &#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/</link>
	<description>K.Mandla's blog of Linux experiences</description>
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		<title>By: Nugnuts</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nugnuts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything wrong with such packages, but I&#039;m not entirely sure they do not already exist. For the &quot;&#039;openoffice-full-install&#039; item&quot;, for instance, are you asking for something distinct from the openoffice.org metapackage, detailed here: http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic-updates/openoffice.org ? (That big blurb of text describing the package and recommending other packages is what an &#039;aptitude show openoffice.org&#039; displays for you, right?)

You should be able to automatically pull in and install all those suggested packages when installing just the openoffice.org package by using the --with-recommends option mentioned above.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything wrong with such packages, but I&#8217;m not entirely sure they do not already exist. For the &#8220;&#8216;openoffice-full-install&#8217; item&#8221;, for instance, are you asking for something distinct from the openoffice.org metapackage, detailed here: <a href="http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic-updates/openoffice.org" rel="nofollow">http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic-updates/openoffice.org</a> ? (That big blurb of text describing the package and recommending other packages is what an &#8216;aptitude show openoffice.org&#8217; displays for you, right?)</p>
<p>You should be able to automatically pull in and install all those suggested packages when installing just the openoffice.org package by using the &#8211;with-recommends option mentioned above.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42462</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2010 06:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nugnuts,

let me give you a practical example.
I started from CLI, and added openbox. I think a dock would be good, so I search and find several. I pick cairo and awn.
Aptitude tells me that there are 10 cairo pkgs. Which one do I install? cairo-dock seems a good guess. Do I also need cairo-core? And what about cairo-dock-plug-ins? And cairo-dock-data? This last one seems quite important too.
With awn things are a bit easier &quot;only&quot; 5 packages, but the concept is the same. Are we&#039;re talking about a relatively tiny utility.
Sudo aptitude install openoffice shows 563 packages (!!!), just to give you a perspective.
I have no issue with setting things up so that users could cherry-pick their packages, but I think/assume, that the vast majority of users want &quot;just&quot; to install a dock, or Openoffice.
Why does this need to become a research study before being able to find out what to really install and what not?
And let&#039;s not go into the dependencies, libraries ...
Perhaps my many years of Windows have rewired my brain and I&#039;m a lost cause ;) BUt what&#039;s wrong with having a &quot;cairo-full-install&quot; or a &quot;openoffice-full-install&quot; item (all with the same &#039;post-fix&#039;), or, if you want, the equivalent of a &quot;setup&quot; command?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nugnuts,</p>
<p>let me give you a practical example.<br />
I started from CLI, and added openbox. I think a dock would be good, so I search and find several. I pick cairo and awn.<br />
Aptitude tells me that there are 10 cairo pkgs. Which one do I install? cairo-dock seems a good guess. Do I also need cairo-core? And what about cairo-dock-plug-ins? And cairo-dock-data? This last one seems quite important too.<br />
With awn things are a bit easier &#8220;only&#8221; 5 packages, but the concept is the same. Are we&#8217;re talking about a relatively tiny utility.<br />
Sudo aptitude install openoffice shows 563 packages (!!!), just to give you a perspective.<br />
I have no issue with setting things up so that users could cherry-pick their packages, but I think/assume, that the vast majority of users want &#8220;just&#8221; to install a dock, or Openoffice.<br />
Why does this need to become a research study before being able to find out what to really install and what not?<br />
And let&#8217;s not go into the dependencies, libraries &#8230;<br />
Perhaps my many years of Windows have rewired my brain and I&#8217;m a lost cause <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  BUt what&#8217;s wrong with having a &#8220;cairo-full-install&#8221; or a &#8220;openoffice-full-install&#8221; item (all with the same &#8216;post-fix&#8217;), or, if you want, the equivalent of a &#8220;setup&#8221; command?</p>
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		<title>By: mulenmar</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42460</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mulenmar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, FreeDOS is supporting stuff that MS-DOS never did. So it&#039;s not ENTIRELY a relic.

As for the &quot;nothing you cannot do&quot;, AMEN!! You just have to configure it right.

That reminds me, I need to look up how to configure Midnight Commander to open graphics files with that framebuffer-based viewer...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, FreeDOS is supporting stuff that MS-DOS never did. So it&#8217;s not ENTIRELY a relic.</p>
<p>As for the &#8220;nothing you cannot do&#8221;, AMEN!! You just have to configure it right.</p>
<p>That reminds me, I need to look up how to configure Midnight Commander to open graphics files with that framebuffer-based viewer&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nugnuts</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42453</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nugnuts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm ... perhaps I don&#039;t quite understand what you&#039;re after. Command-line package managers, like APT, generally do tell you what you will get should you install a given package. A simple &#039;apt-cache show firefox&#039;, for example, will tell you which version of firefox that package would install, in addition to a bunch of other information, like a description of the software in the package. The aptitude utility would also be able to provide these details.

So I guess that&#039;s one way to find answers. But perhaps you&#039;re also asking about how to know how to find answers? Forgive/ignore the following if that&#039;s not what you&#039;re after. To install something on an APT-based system, I guess you would have to at least be familiar with the fact that you&#039;ll be using the apt-get command (or perhaps aptitude). With generally any command line program, you can always bring up its manual/help information with a call to man. Doing a &#039;man apt-get&#039; gives a bunch of information about how to use apt-get, and also suggests looking into the apt-cache command (in the &quot;See Also&quot; section near the bottom of the man page). So one could/should then also do a &#039;man apt-cache&#039; and would see how to use that. As for knowing that one should invoke man to begin with, well, running &#039;help&#039; at the command line suggests doing exactly that. The output of help also recommends the &#039;info&#039; command, which is another way to get helpful information. I think typing help at the command line is generally analogous to a help menu on whatever GUI application. (Of course, even with just text, you can pull off some semi-fancy &#039;GUI-like&#039; functionality such as pull-down menus and whatnot, facilitated by libraries like ncurses--aptitude, for example, has such menus.)

So I would say the information you&#039;re after is all there; it basically just needs to be read. One could certainly argue that reading through a bunch of man pages and help files is clumsy and not as intuitive as using a GUI and seeing various menu options and what-have-you. But then, that&#039;s just a necessary difference between two interfaces. The command line (basically) only has text available, so that is just the way it works.

But maybe I&#039;m not actually addressing your issue?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm &#8230; perhaps I don&#8217;t quite understand what you&#8217;re after. Command-line package managers, like APT, generally do tell you what you will get should you install a given package. A simple &#8216;apt-cache show firefox&#8217;, for example, will tell you which version of firefox that package would install, in addition to a bunch of other information, like a description of the software in the package. The aptitude utility would also be able to provide these details.</p>
<p>So I guess that&#8217;s one way to find answers. But perhaps you&#8217;re also asking about how to know how to find answers? Forgive/ignore the following if that&#8217;s not what you&#8217;re after. To install something on an APT-based system, I guess you would have to at least be familiar with the fact that you&#8217;ll be using the apt-get command (or perhaps aptitude). With generally any command line program, you can always bring up its manual/help information with a call to man. Doing a &#8216;man apt-get&#8217; gives a bunch of information about how to use apt-get, and also suggests looking into the apt-cache command (in the &#8220;See Also&#8221; section near the bottom of the man page). So one could/should then also do a &#8216;man apt-cache&#8217; and would see how to use that. As for knowing that one should invoke man to begin with, well, running &#8216;help&#8217; at the command line suggests doing exactly that. The output of help also recommends the &#8216;info&#8217; command, which is another way to get helpful information. I think typing help at the command line is generally analogous to a help menu on whatever GUI application. (Of course, even with just text, you can pull off some semi-fancy &#8216;GUI-like&#8217; functionality such as pull-down menus and whatnot, facilitated by libraries like ncurses&#8211;aptitude, for example, has such menus.)</p>
<p>So I would say the information you&#8217;re after is all there; it basically just needs to be read. One could certainly argue that reading through a bunch of man pages and help files is clumsy and not as intuitive as using a GUI and seeing various menu options and what-have-you. But then, that&#8217;s just a necessary difference between two interfaces. The command line (basically) only has text available, so that is just the way it works.</p>
<p>But maybe I&#8217;m not actually addressing your issue?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Webstar</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42452</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Webstar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42452</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Indeed, especially the first part. DOS is an ancient relic of times past. The linux console, in whatever shell flavour, is a powerful tool. Big emphasis on &quot;powerful&quot;. On linux, there is nothing you can not do on the console.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, especially the first part. DOS is an ancient relic of times past. The linux console, in whatever shell flavour, is a powerful tool. Big emphasis on &#8220;powerful&#8221;. On linux, there is nothing you can not do on the console.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nugnuts,
thanks for the reply. I don&#039;t mind lengthy ones, especially if constructive and useful :)
I am familiar with Win&#039;s cmd: I have been using MS since DoS 5.0 and I have a few batch scripts even today (e.g.: to cleanup rundll&#039;s 8) ). In Linux though, because so many people use command lines, there&#039;s a plethora of useful tools which you can see have been designed to be efficient. Take mogrify, for example. Powerful, simple and quick image resize/modify tool. Can&#039;t match that with a gui. I could probably find a similar cmd line tool in Windows, but I&#039;d have to install it, make sure the executable is in the &quot;path&quot; so that I can access it from anywhere ... and all this while dealing with long directory names in an environment that does a half-ass job to support it.

Back to Linux: my example on openbox is just that: an example. There are tons more. To install Firefox I could use sudo apt... firefox, but also sudo ... firefox-3.6. If I pick Firefox, do I miss out on something? Which version will be installed? And, most important, how do I find out the answers to those questions?
I have no problem supporting separate packages for max flexibility, but the way it works today is just not efficient. Maybe my expectations are unreasonable, or maybe I am missing the point, or it&#039;s simply that I don&#039;t know enough about Linux to &quot;see&quot; what to do.
What amazes me is that so many people put so much effort in writing tools that are so handy, and then they &quot;fail&quot; to make those tools accessible to everybody in a simple/handy way.

I do follow your comparison with browsers and Flash plugins and it is somewhat relevant, but you see how practical it is to install a missing plugin? You get a clear message &quot;Hey, you need this plugin to view this box&quot; and a very clear action &quot;Click here to install it&quot;. 
The equivalent would be that if a &quot;firefox-read-me&quot; or &quot;firefox-main&quot; or whatever, will tell me exactly what do I get if I install each of those packages, without having to scavenge through Wikis. Maybe I&#039;m asking too much, but it seems a minimal effort compared to the building of the app itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nugnuts,<br />
thanks for the reply. I don&#8217;t mind lengthy ones, especially if constructive and useful <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I am familiar with Win&#8217;s cmd: I have been using MS since DoS 5.0 and I have a few batch scripts even today (e.g.: to cleanup rundll&#8217;s 8) ). In Linux though, because so many people use command lines, there&#8217;s a plethora of useful tools which you can see have been designed to be efficient. Take mogrify, for example. Powerful, simple and quick image resize/modify tool. Can&#8217;t match that with a gui. I could probably find a similar cmd line tool in Windows, but I&#8217;d have to install it, make sure the executable is in the &#8220;path&#8221; so that I can access it from anywhere &#8230; and all this while dealing with long directory names in an environment that does a half-ass job to support it.</p>
<p>Back to Linux: my example on openbox is just that: an example. There are tons more. To install Firefox I could use sudo apt&#8230; firefox, but also sudo &#8230; firefox-3.6. If I pick Firefox, do I miss out on something? Which version will be installed? And, most important, how do I find out the answers to those questions?<br />
I have no problem supporting separate packages for max flexibility, but the way it works today is just not efficient. Maybe my expectations are unreasonable, or maybe I am missing the point, or it&#8217;s simply that I don&#8217;t know enough about Linux to &#8220;see&#8221; what to do.<br />
What amazes me is that so many people put so much effort in writing tools that are so handy, and then they &#8220;fail&#8221; to make those tools accessible to everybody in a simple/handy way.</p>
<p>I do follow your comparison with browsers and Flash plugins and it is somewhat relevant, but you see how practical it is to install a missing plugin? You get a clear message &#8220;Hey, you need this plugin to view this box&#8221; and a very clear action &#8220;Click here to install it&#8221;.<br />
The equivalent would be that if a &#8220;firefox-read-me&#8221; or &#8220;firefox-main&#8221; or whatever, will tell me exactly what do I get if I install each of those packages, without having to scavenge through Wikis. Maybe I&#8217;m asking too much, but it seems a minimal effort compared to the building of the app itself.</p>
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		<title>By: mulenmar</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42445</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mulenmar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 04:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And people need to realize that &quot;Linux command line&quot; != (&quot;DOS&quot;, &quot;Ancient&quot;, &quot;Archaic&quot;, &quot;Incomprehensible by definition&quot;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And people need to realize that &#8220;Linux command line&#8221; != (&#8220;DOS&#8221;, &#8220;Ancient&#8221;, &#8220;Archaic&#8221;, &#8220;Incomprehensible by definition&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: JakeT</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42444</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JakeT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 03:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I tend to agree that this sentiment of &#039;when are we going to get away from the command line&#039; is kind of silly. 

Administering Linux is best done via CLI. Administering Windows is best done through the Control Panel, registry editor and a bewildering array of hidden gui panels. I have no idea how to administer OS X, but the point is that each OS has its BEST way, and on Linux that&#039;s the command line.

We just need to get better at teaching people how to use it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to agree that this sentiment of &#8216;when are we going to get away from the command line&#8217; is kind of silly. </p>
<p>Administering Linux is best done via CLI. Administering Windows is best done through the Control Panel, registry editor and a bewildering array of hidden gui panels. I have no idea how to administer OS X, but the point is that each OS has its BEST way, and on Linux that&#8217;s the command line.</p>
<p>We just need to get better at teaching people how to use it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Webstar</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42442</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Webstar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 00:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wouldn&#039;t dare calling someone who doesn&#039;t use the console a &quot;coder&quot;. Ever. The very idea is short of funny.

That matter settled, there are uses for everything. I can&#039;t live without the console, but neither would I consider going console-only. It&#039;s a deal of using the right tool for the job at hand. If your jobs don&#039;t include console tasks, then you&#039;re golden not using it, but telling the console to go and die in a corner just because YOU don&#039;t need it is absurd.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t dare calling someone who doesn&#8217;t use the console a &#8220;coder&#8221;. Ever. The very idea is short of funny.</p>
<p>That matter settled, there are uses for everything. I can&#8217;t live without the console, but neither would I consider going console-only. It&#8217;s a deal of using the right tool for the job at hand. If your jobs don&#8217;t include console tasks, then you&#8217;re golden not using it, but telling the console to go and die in a corner just because YOU don&#8217;t need it is absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous coward</title>
		<link>http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42439</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anonymous coward]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/when-you-put-it-that-way/#comment-42439</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I actually do use command line tools to batch-generate/manipulate images. Think reproducible vector graphics for LaTex/the web/fun. Or maybe PoVray or Renderman stuff...

And about aesthetics of webpages... aren&#039;t we already past the point where people can force some layout on me when the only thing I&#039;m interested in is the actual information on that very site?

I agree with one point, though: Raw output to stdout/stderror is a good thing. The problem is that sometimes the GUI tries to outsmart such output and &quot;interprets&quot; it in a wrong/insufficient way. Or maybe CLI and GUI versions aren&#039;t compatible...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually do use command line tools to batch-generate/manipulate images. Think reproducible vector graphics for LaTex/the web/fun. Or maybe PoVray or Renderman stuff&#8230;</p>
<p>And about aesthetics of webpages&#8230; aren&#8217;t we already past the point where people can force some layout on me when the only thing I&#8217;m interested in is the actual information on that very site?</p>
<p>I agree with one point, though: Raw output to stdout/stderror is a good thing. The problem is that sometimes the GUI tries to outsmart such output and &#8220;interprets&#8221; it in a wrong/insufficient way. Or maybe CLI and GUI versions aren&#8217;t compatible&#8230;</p>
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